One Thousand and One Nights Outside VOL.2 “Red Brick Dance Crossing for Ko Murobushi” Keisuke Sakurai and Yoshio Otani Interview

Text: Taisuke Shimanuki Photo (Portrait): Masamasa Nishino

In June 2015, a shock ran through the world of performing arts. Butoh dancer and choreographer Ko Murobushi passed away suddenly. He died suddenly at the airport while on his way to Germany for a workshop after a performance in Mexico. Sudden parting is sad. However, it may have been a farewell typical of Murobushi, who spent most of his life traveling.
In February of this year, an event will be held to commemorate Murobushi. The title is "A Thousand and One Nights Outside VOL.2." The event was planned as the second in a series of events designed by Murobushi himself, and will include dancers, organizers, and critics with ties to Murobushi, and will carry out various projects over five days. Among them, the two-day dance event will be held by critic Keisuke Sakurai and musician Yoshio Otani. What thoughts do the two people who were closely involved with Murobushi put into this event?
Who was Ko Murobushi? We interviewed two people to find out the answer.

Will he also be angry in the afterlife? "Red Brick Dance Crossing for Ko Murobushi"

On June 18th of last year, butoh dancer and choreographer Ko Murobushi suddenly passed away while traveling in Mexico. “A Thousand and One Nights Outside VOL.2” starting February 18th is a memorial event held in response to that.

Sakurai: Although that ended up happening in the end, Mr. Murobushi himself was originally planning to do a sequel to ``One Thousand and One Nights Outside'' at the Red Brick Warehouse. In the fall of 2013, we did VOL.1 produced by Mr. Murobushi, and this time was supposed to be the second volume.

Mr. Sakurai and Mr. Otani were involved in VOL.1 as performers.

Sakurai: yes. So, although it's not like we're carrying on Mr. Murofushi's wishes, we decided to do it again this time just like we did last time. As one of these programs, we jointly planned ``Red Brick Dance Crossing for Ko Murobushi'' (ADX4KM). Therefore, we ask those who appeared in VOL.1 to participate in the performances and symposia as much as possible.

While saying that, Mr. Sakurai tweeted on Twitter and other places, ``I'll make it something that would make Mr. Murobushi angry in the afterlife'' (lol).

Sakurai: I want to show Mr. Murofushi something that will make him angry, or rather, make him smile (lol). I didn't want it to be a damp dance crossing where people who were related to Mr. Murobushi were commemorating the deceased.

Otani: That's right. During VOL.1, I worked with Mr. Murobushi as a kind of music director, and I had already received a request from him for VOL.2, so I didn't want to suddenly change course just because he passed away.

Sakurai: Up until now, I've been curating Dance Crossing by myself, but since this time it's "for Ko Murobushi," I thought I'd like to plan it together with Mr. Otani.

Dance Crossing refers to Azumabashi Dance Crossing, which ran from 2004 to 2013. Mr. Murobushi also performs, and there are many contemporary dancers and artists who have expanded their field of activity from here. This year's "ADX4KM" is a two-night crossover project between a legendary dance event and a legendary butoh artist.

Sakurai: It's not that exaggerated to think about Murofushi's personality and the essence of his dancing, but that's also a sub-theme (lol).

Encounter with Ko Murobushi

I see. By the way, what kind of artist was Ko Murobushi? He is internationally recognized as a representative of butoh, and for someone like me who doesn't know much about it, I automatically assume that he is an authority on butoh.

Sakurai: This is just my opinion, but I don't think Murobushi liked being placed in the narrow realm of butoh. That's why he was a person who actively interacted with strange people and young people like me.

Otani: Of course, he is a founding member of Akaji Maro's Dairakudakan, but since a certain point he has continued to be a solo artist without having his own company, and I think he is outside the boundaries of the genre. .

Sakurai: And it's not based in Japan. In other words, without having a base, I spend half the year performing all over the world.

Otani: I think there is a strong sense of master-disciple in butoh, but Mr. Murobushi has tried not to have direct disciples or secret techniques. I don't know if that was a conscious choice.

Do you mean someone who started out in butoh and continued on his own path? Could you tell us how the two of you met Murobushi-san?

Sakurai: In 1998, there was a symposium to commemorate the 13th anniversary of Tatsumi Hijikata's death. There, I appeared on the stage as a panelist with Mr. Hideyoshi Ko, a theater critic. As expected, it started to feel like a fight with the audience (bitter smile). In short, Mr. Kou and I didn't go so far as to say, ``Butoh is no longer good,'' but we did say something provocative. I think Butoh at the time was often talked about as a symbol of anti-modernity, a pre-modern expression, and connected to ecology. In a situation where people's daily lives have become leisure activities, I doubt whether this kind of nature-oriented attitude has any effect on actual society.'' That's why young dancers and dance critics get angry and say, ``Don't make fun of me!''
While the audience members were talking about it, Murofushi-san, who was sitting in the audience, suddenly started saying something like, ``That's why we can't have butoh!'' We spoke for the first time after the meeting, but since Mr. Murobushi had been overseas for a long time, I myself had never seen his work. I was shocked when I watched the video that he immediately sent me. I have never seen dance like this! That's it. So I told him, ``I'd like you to do dance in Japan. I'll help out!'' and I worked on Murofushi's production for a while.

Otani: In my case, the event planned by Mr. Sakurai was my first time at Ko Murobushi.

It was a project held at SNAC in Kiyosumi-Shirakawa. The space was jointly rented by Sakurai's Azumabashi Dance Crossing and contemporary art gallery Mujinto Production.

Otani: Mr. Murobushi returned to Japan and had two days free, so we asked him if we could do a project. It was 2011, right after the Great East Japan Earthquake. Chim↑Pom was holding an exhibition until just before.

Sakurai: The "REAL TIMES" exhibition. The temporary wall used in the exhibition was laid down on the floor and used as a stage for the dancers to dance.

Otani: I've been actively involved in the performing arts since around 2005, and it's been a while since I've seen any of their works, but it was the first time I got to talk with them. I still remember that the placement of the speakers was terrible, and the phases clashed, so I couldn't get any volume (lol). So I changed my position and said, ``This is no good,'' and before I knew it, I was in charge of PA for events. Mr. Murobushi brought a CD sound source and instructed me to play it at this particular timing.

It's easy (lol).

Otani: That was the first day, and we decided on the spot that we were going to bring our own equipment and DJ. I was even in charge of the production where I bought a used book at a used book store and threw it on stage. So we had fun fighting at the launch.

Sakurai: I got so angry that I accidentally splashed a glass of water on him (lol).

Otani: After that, we went to Vienna together in 2014 and maybe even went to South America, but we decided against it due to budget issues. I feel like I only met him as a dancer and a musician. I wanted to continue more.

As I listened to their stories, I got the feeling that both of them had a fun dispute or a fun trouble that led to their encounter.

Otani: Butoh people are quick to get into fights (lol)

Sakurai: Mr. Murobushi is kind (lol). He is a gentleman who is strict when it comes to butoh and dance, but respects others without discrimination.

Otani: I go to see the works of young artists. It feels like it's coming all of a sudden. I think I watched something almost every day when I was in Japan.

Beyond Butoh/Ko Murobushi’s physicality

Both of you see Mr. Murobushi as someone who went to the "outside" of butoh, but what kind of impression did you get from his work?

Sakurai: There is a certain typical image of butoh. They were painted white and wore dirty rags, like zombies, or something typical of Japanese folklore. There is no such impression at all, it just feels like there is only one body. In the art, costumes, stories, and music, I never tried to convey frightening, surrealistic images, oriental mysticism or orientalism. You could call it modernist or minimalist. By watching Murobushi's dance, I can really understand the essential aspects of butoh that Tatsumi Hijikata had in mind.

What is the essence of Butoh?

Sakurai: I think that the butoh that Hijikata started is about the presence of the body, the body as a substance. Unlike European ballet, which tries to move upwards in defiance of the laws of physics, the concept of dance is different from that of dance, which brings to light the materiality and existence of the heavy body. There is also an aspect of butoh as a contemporary art form.

Otani: I agree with you, Mr. Murobushi was a modern person. My background is in improvisation, and the themes are exactly the same. What can I do to create a work without a story? How much should I cut in order to create a work with almost no pieces? And what are the possibilities from there? As a result of such contemplation, in the late 1960s, people in improvisation arrived at the theory that the farthest performance could go was to be able to perform without relying on anything. Mr. Murobushi sees butoh in the context of modern art, while I do it with music. We were both clearly aware that we were taking on the theme of a trend in 20th century contemporary art, so we were able to have a conversation and share our work right away. In addition to that, the two of us talked a lot about music, about the temporality and spatiality of soul music and black music. We often talked about whether we could once again bring back the time and space of black music to contemporary dance.

Sakurai: ADX4KM uses a photo of Mr. Murobushi with a tissue stuffed in his nose for publicity purposes, but it's completely nonsensical. But the dancing is also really cool...or rather, both of them are cool (lol). Many dancers have narcissistic characters who are infatuated with themselves, but Mr. Murofushi is clearly conscious of objectifying his own body, and is the type of person who cuts off many things in an instant. He was dancing in the same way.

Otani: I didn't cancel my own method, but I was consciously trying to stop it while accelerating it. I think of it as ``prose-like,'' and I'm always in a kind of split state, so I don't get narcissistic. It's not integrated in an easy-to-understand way, so even when you're watching the dance, you can't grasp what's going on.

Sakurai: Even though he was dancing like crazy, he suddenly turned to the audience and grumbled, ``It's okay to talk (even while dancing)'' (lol). Sometimes people talk about butoh in terms of modern ideas. For example, Gilles Deleuze and Félix Guattari talk about ``generative change,'' and Mr. Murofushi is the person who has made this into reality. It is normal for most dancers to dance according to a pattern, and even though it may seem divisive, it is just a random dance, and it is still euphoric.

Otani: That's right.

Sakurai: When you follow Mr. Murobushi's dance with your eyes, it resembles, for example, the phrasing of an improvisational performance. I think there are some similarities between the way Rakugo talks and the approaches used in sumo wrestling, and the way they pull it off easily is very skillful. That's where the groove is born.

Otani: People tend to think that a groove occurs when you repeat a certain phrase repeatedly, but it doesn't become a groove just like that.

Sakurai: If that were the case, it would simply become a Bon festival dance.

Otani: The image is of many rotating gears moving at the same time, interlocking in places you can't see, and ultimately appearing as complex movements that are completely impossible to read. I'm a musician, so I can understand what he's trying to do, and I'm surprised at how difficult it is...but what's also amazing is that it's not difficult to understand.

Sakurai: It's simply fun to watch.

Otani: It's interesting, but technically it's extremely advanced (lol). You'll understand if you try it yourself, but just creating polyrhythms is difficult. In the first place, if you don't have that kind of worldview within yourself, you'll never be able to do it. Good dancers do this unconsciously.

Encounter the past with Ko Murobushi

You said, ``I want ADX4KM to be something that would make Murofushi-san smile bitterly.'' What kind of specific content do you think it will be?

Otani: I'm sure we've got people who are making things in the present tense, people who are always experimenting. Everyone is working in different directions, so that's not Mr. Murobushi, but I want people to experience the disparate state of things as a whole.

Sakurai: There were 19 participants in total, and we combined them into seven sets over two days, and this time we focused on how to bring different things together. It's not Marcel Duchamp's sewing machine and bat umbrella (lol). Mr. Murofushi was a person who was very sensitive to such things, so I think he would find it interesting that it was unpredictable. If I were to pick a difference from past Azumabashi Dance Crossings, I would say that this time it's more hardcore. I don't think it will feel like "It's a festival!"

Otani: Not all of them are serious, but I feel like they are becoming more serious overall.

Sakurai: Azumabashi Dance Crossing was created in such a way that the entire performance was made into a show with a high level of perfection. I felt like I was editing a mixtape, thinking, ``This is what's next after this performance,'' or ``I'll leave this part open for 5 seconds,'' or ``I'll close this part.'' I couldn't stand being lazy. But as I've gotten older, I've become calmer, or rather, it doesn't bother me anymore (lol). Rather than the overall flow, I want to convey the quality or uniqueness of each individual performance. In that sense, it's hardcore.

In addition to "ADX4KM," there will also be talk sessions, recorded footage of Mr. Murobushi from the 1970s to recent years, and a re-performance of "Dead 1," which was performed in VOL.

Sakurai: All in all, it's the ``One Thousand and One Nights Outside'' that Murofushi wanted to create. I think we wanted to do something that would not be a dance-specific festival, but one that would touch on and discuss things other than dance. In VOL.1, I didn't talk about dance, but rather about demonstration acts with Takashi Mita under the title "Expression as Demonstration."

Otani: I watched Hatsune Miku on NicoNico Douga's ``Odote Mita'' and talked with Satoru Kimura. Then people in the audience would say things like, ``It's long!'' and people would say things like, ``That's so loud!'' and we'd start fighting again (lol).

Sakurai: A program that deals with things outside of dance, or that allows dance to expand outward. VOL.2 also has that awareness, and at the same time does something silly. I believe that this will ultimately serve as a memorial to Mr. Murobushi. I won't make it a retrospective where I remember the loss of a dear person.

Present-oriented, future-oriented.

Otani: No, I don't think about the future. It is only natural that the present is an extension of continuity from the past, and that there is a future beyond that, and we cannot predict whether it will be great or bad. do not have. In fact, everyone forgets too much about the past. There are too many people who talk about the future when they haven't fully used up their past deeds and accumulations. The potential in Murofushi's activities has not yet been fully exploited, and that's why we're doing VOL.2. The 20th century was the era of records and movies, and a major theme in modern times is how to deal with things that are recorded and remain forever.

With the advent and distribution of images and music, the amount of information we can learn about the past has increased dramatically.

Otani: Therefore, thinking about the past rather than the future will start to activate your thinking. It's much more fun to be asked, "What happens to your dance past?"

Sakurai: I can't think of any number of them either.

Otani: For example, when someone asks me, ``How was Sylvie Guillem at the end of the year?'' my head spins furiously (lol). Now that Murobushi has passed away, his works and activities will naturally become a thing of the past, but what Murofushi has done up until now should still be heading towards the future, and dealing with the past is also dealing with the future. I think it's the same thing.

An encounter with Ko Murobushi, an encounter with the past. In response, Mr. Sakurai, Mr. Otani, and other living artists and critics provoked Mr. Murobushi, who had passed away.

Sakurai: I'm thinking of having UCNV glitch Murofushi's performance footage to shreds. "UCNV x Suga Dairo x Pardon Kimura" on the 20th and "UCNV x Kukan Gendai" on the 21st are sessions in which the transformed Murobushi and musicians will come together. I had no intention of showing a normal video in Dance Crossing, but that's the one thing that brought Ko Murobushi to shreds and brought him back to life (lol). It's like dismantling, analyzing, and building.

Otani: I want to go that far.

Ko Murobushi Profile
(1947-2015) Studied under Tatsumi Hijikata and participated in the launch of Dairakudakan with Akaji Maro and others. After that, she led her own group ``Sebi'' and the women's dance group ``Ariadone no Kai'' and was active mainly in Europe. In recent years, he has been active both domestically and internationally with his unparalleled solo performances and works featuring young artists such as "Ko & Edge." Passed away in Mexico on June 18, 2015.

Keisuke Sakurai Profile
Musician/Dance Criticism. "Azumabashi Dance Crossing" organizer.

Yoshio Otani Profile
Born in 1972. Music (saxophone, electronics, composition, arrangement, track making)/criticism (jazz history, 20th century music history, music theory). Co-authored with Naruyoshi Kikuchi, ``A school that taught melancholy and sensuality,'' and the solo books ``Poor Music,'' ``A Discursive Stroll through the World of Prose: Reading Twentieth Century Criticism,'' and ``Jazz and Freedom Hand in Hand (To Hell). ) Author of many works, including ``Go''. As a musician, he has participated in many groups and sessions, including sim, mas, JazzDommunisters, Drinkers (Shunji Mikawa/HIKO/Otani), Shuta Hasunuma Philharmonic, and ``Ami Yoshida, Yoshio Otani''. Released solo albums ``From 'Kawagishi Hojisho'' and ``Ongaku for the Stage 2'' on HEADZ, and ``Jazz Abstractions'' on BlackSmoker. Responsible for the music for the movie ``Random to Wait'' and the theme song under the name ``The Theory of Relativity and Yoshio Otani''. He has participated in many theatrical and dance works, including Tokyo Deathrock, Shigeki Nakano + Frankens, Teita Iwabuchi, Yukio Suzuki, Ko Murobushi, Kaya Ohashi + Dancers, and others. Recent works include producing ``Mum, Gypsy, and Yoshio Otani'' (CD+DVD), Hiroshi Irie's ``Job'' (CD), and starring in ``Shoes Wear Under the Sea Have No Laces'' (written, directed, and choreographed by Taichi Yamagata). Such.