Late Autumn KAAT Performances and Special Director Discussion – Junnosuke Tada (Tokyo Deathlock) x Toshiki Okada (chelfitsch)
Interview・Text: Fujiwara Chikara Photo: Nishino Masamasa
Two noteworthy plays will be performed at KAAT (Kanagawa Arts Theatre) from late autumn to winter. Tokyo Deathlock + 12th Tongue Theatre Studio's "Karumegi" and Chelfitsch's "Super Premium Soft W Vanilla Rich." Both works premiered overseas, and this will be their first time performing in Japan. Theater critic Fujiwara Chikara, who saw the world premieres in Seoul and Mannheim, respectively, served as the interviewer for a discussion between the two directors.
The recording took place at the Kirari Fujimi Theater, where Junnosuke Tada serves as artistic director. The conversation was conducted over Skype with Toshiki Okada, who was currently in Modena, Italy, for a tour.
<Speaker’s Profile>
Junnosuke Tada
Born in Chiba in 1976. Director and director of Tokyo Deathlock.
He creates a wide range of works, from classical to contemporary plays and performance pieces. His directing style focuses on the phenomena occurring in the moment, including the actor's body, the audience, and time. He openly declares his love for theater, and in addition to his theater company's productions, he stays in the local area to create works with the participation of local citizens, teaches communication classes at elementary, middle, and high schools, and gives lectures and workshops at universities, in order to widely convey the dialogue and collaborative power of theater to people who are not theater specialists. He is active both in Japan and overseas, performing in Korea and France, and co-producing. As an actor, he has guest-starred with other theater companies, and has appeared in films and TV dramas. He is also a member of the Seinendan directing department, and co-directs Seinendan Link Niki no Kai with Miyamori Satsuki. In April 2010, he became the artistic director of Fujimi Civic Cultural Center Kirari Fujimi, the youngest artistic director of a public cultural facility's theater department in Japan. In December 2013, he was the first foreigner to win the most prestigious Dong-A Theater Award in Korea for his work on the Japan-Korea co-production "Karumegi." He was a Junior Fellow at the Saison Foundation from 2009 to 2010. Since 2013, he has been a visiting artist at the Regional Theater for Regional Creation. He is a part-time lecturer at Shikoku Gakuin University.
▼ Tokyo Deathlock + 12th Tongue Theatre Studio "Karumegi"
Thursday, November 27th - Sunday, November 30th, 2014 @KAAT Kanagawa Arts Theatre
Toshiki Okada
Born in Yokohama in 1973. Playwright / Novelist / Director of the theatre company Chelfitsch.
His work has attracted attention both in Japan and abroad as it is seen as overturning conventional concepts of theater. In 2005, he won the 49th Kishida Kunio Drama Award for Five Days in March. In July of the same year, he participated in the final selection of the Toyota Choreography Award 2005 - Discovering the Next Generation of Choreographers - with his work Air Conditioner. In 2007, he released his debut collection of stories, The End of the Special Time We Were Allowed to Do, published by Shinchosha, and the following year won the 2nd Oe Kenzaburo Award. Since 2012, he has served as a judge for the Kishida Kunio Drama Award. In 2013, his first collection of theater essays, Retrograde: A Theory of Theater for Transformation, published by Kawade Shobo Shinsha.
▼Chelfitsch "Super Premium Soft W Vanilla Rich"
December 12th (Fri) - 21st (Sun), 2014 @KAAT Kanagawa Arts Theatre
Connection with Korea
I would like you to speak freely today, focusing mainly on the works that each of you will be performing at KAAT.
In the first place, there aren't many opportunities for the two of you to talk in public, right?
Tada : When I made a work called "Re/Rebirth" previously, you came to an after-talk.
──You met in Seoul this year.
Okada : Yes, Tada-san came to see our Seoul performance of "Ground and Floor."
Tada-san, your work Karumegi won three awards at the East Asia Theater Awards - Best Work, Best Direction, and Best Set Design and Technical Award - and you have a deep connection to Korea, having performed your work there many times.
Mr. Okada, you have also performed several times.
Okada : I've been there about four times, so there are some customers who come to see it regularly.
Tada : You have a lot of fans in Seoul. But will your next (next year's) production be your first time working in Korea with Koreans?
Okada : It was my first time. So, I chose three people I thought were good at the audition, and two of them had worked with Tada-san in the past (laughs).
Tada : One of them is an actor who also appears in "Karumegi."
Okada : I haven't seen "Karumegi" yet, but I think the fact that it won an award is surely a result of the work that you have been doing with Korean actors since before. I would like to ask you about the circumstances that led to this.
Tada : In 2008, I first participated alone in a festival that aimed to pair Korean actors with Asian directors to create works. The actors who appeared then continue to appear. At that time, I also met Song Ki-woong, who is also the writer of this production of "Karumegi," and since then I have continued to work with his theater company, the 12th Tongue Theater Studio, at Tokyo Deathlock. We get grants from each other's countries, book a theater in Seoul, and get involved in festivals when we can... a pretty ordinary, steady way of working. I think that the audience comes to see me thinking that I'm a "Japanese director," but from my perspective, I've been working steadily in small theaters in Korea.
The original idea for Karmegi was Chekhov's The Seagull, which Sung Ki-woong transplanted to the era of Japanese colonial rule in the first half of the 20th century. Even with the cooperation of Sung Ki-woong and his 12th Tongue Theater Studio, it must have been a very stressful job for the Japanese director Tada Junnosuke to direct this story, right?
Tada : It is true that Song Ki-woong's specialty was writing about the colonial era, but for the past five years, he has basically been working on the idea of "not talking about history." As a Japanese person, when dealing with the history of Korea, I can't just sit back and think about what it means to be Japanese. For example, if a Korean director does the same production, it's fine, but if a Japanese director does it, it can be problematic.
──In that regard, what was the reaction to last year's Seoul performance of "Karumegi"?
Tada : Of course there were pros and cons about the history. It's complicated even in Korea. But it was a big success that we were able to deal with the history of Japan and Korea in Korea. I think it was good for the future of Japanese and Korean artists. But especially with "Karumegi", I think the situation is quite different when it's performed in Korea and when it's performed in Japan. The amount of information the audience has about the history of the two countries is different...
"Karumegi" 2013.10 DoosanArtCenter Space111／(C)DoosanArtCenter
<Fujiwara Chikara Show Review>
Tokyo Deathlock + 12th Tongue Theatre Studio "Karumegi" Seoul Performance @ October 2013
This work transplants Chekhov's "The Seagull" to the period when Japan colonized Korea in the early 20th century, the so-called Japanese Empire. In recent years, Tokyo Deathlock, led by Junnosuke Tada, has been presenting plays such as "Symposium" and "Ceremony" in which the audience creates the atmosphere together with them, but "Kamomegi" is a completely dramatic play. The actors' acting skills were also very high, and the story was thrilling. It was an unforgettable and moving performance.
As the play deals with a historical issue that could be considered taboo in Japan-Korea and Korea-Japan relations, the Japanese actors felt a sense of tension away from home (in a very good way) in Seoul, but the situation will be very different when it is performed in Japan. At the end of last year, this work won the triple crown of the Best Play, Best Direction, and Best Scenic Design and Technical Design awards at the Dong-A Theater Awards in Korea, achieving the feat of being the first Japanese director to win the award.
The information gap between Japan and Korea
Tada : When I saw Chelfitsch's "Chichi to Yako" in Seoul...and before that in Yokohama, it dealt with the issue of language, and the reactions are definitely different when it's performed in Japan and overseas.
--You said things like, "The subtitles have been behind the times and it's getting annoying!" and "Some people hear words they don't understand and say they sound like music," and so you used the subtitles intentionally rather than just as an aid, provoking non-Japanese speaking audience members.
Tada : Yes, it is also made for people who don't understand Japanese. So I was wondering how much of it is made for people who do understand Japanese.
Okada : I'm sure each audience receives something different. However, I was very conscious of making something that both audiences could appreciate. It's impossible to forget to show it to a Japanese audience. But for example, if the premiere is in Europe... or rather, if it's decided to do it in a place where there are basically no customers who understand Japanese, as is the case with "Super Premium Soft W Vanilla Rich," the influence is not small after all. I can't get either audience out of my head, and I'll say it with certainty that there is no priority there at all.
Your Mannheim performance of Super Premium Soft W Vanilla Rich also ironically confronted European audiences with a caricature of modern Japan, symbolized by convenience stores. But the Japanese performance is not something that is unrelated to the audience at all...
When I interviewed you this summer, you said that you weren't yet conscious of showing it to Japanese people, but you're currently on the overseas tour of "Super Premium" and will be coming to Yokohama after this. Now that you're in the middle of it all, has your mindset changed?
Okada : Of course there is. When you're on tour, your work grows and matures, and that process is exactly what we're going through right now. I think it's going to be great. Like, let's go to Yokohama with this momentum! (laughs). So we're in a totally different mood. But when it comes to what kind of reaction we'll get in Yokohama, we don't have any particular predictions, we just have to do it. So I want to do it soon. Is that the right answer?
──Do you also have the sense that your work gradually matures during the tour?
Tada : If we tour, that's definitely true. I also think we should. I don't know if it's good or bad that a year has passed since the premiere of "Karumegi" in Seoul, but at least the situation has changed since then. Japan-Korea relations, Japan... The way we see things may change.
Okada : ...Um, sorry, I'm a bit curious, so can I change the topic? When it comes to the differences between overseas and Japan, I think that our works, for example, "Jichi to Yuko" and "Super Premium...", can be roughly described as "the difference between Japan and the rest of the world". But I think that "Karumegi" is not like that, it's more like "the difference between Japan and Korea". I think the difference in the cases is important.
Photo left: "Ground and Floor" © Shimizu Misako / Photo right: "Super Premium Soft W Vanilla Rich" © Christian Kleiner
--In other words, there is something special between Japan and Korea.
Okada : What Tada-san said earlier that I really think is true is that the amount of information Korean and Japanese audiences have is different. Compared to Koreans, Japanese people have very little knowledge about the history between Korea and Japan. I feel a lot of dissatisfaction with that gap that Koreans have. Don't you think so?
Tada : I think so.
Okada : For example, Japanese people don't really know what year "1910" is. Of course, everyone in Korea knows that it was the year Japan annexed Korea and colonized it. It's recognized on the same level as "1945." The difference is big, isn't it? Do you control the amount of information in that area? This is just a guess, but I think there are things that don't need to be explained to Korean audiences at this point, but Japanese people don't know what they're talking about.
Tada : I would like people to think about "not knowing the information." I think Japanese people have no idea what Koreans thought when they saw this work. But this work has already been performed in Korea, so if people keep that in mind, I think it might be worth performing in Japan. Of course, it might be difficult if people don't even know that Japan annexed Korea and colonized it.
Okada : I wonder how many people don't know?
Tada : I don't think children know...even high school students. They're not used to seeing scenes where the Japanese ruled Korea. Koreans have seen it since they were children in pictures, on TV, and in movies... In that sense, I think Japanese people might be more shocked. There are Korean actors in front of them, so they might feel uncomfortable. It might be better to make a scene where Japanese people bully Koreans, but basically there isn't anything like that.
Distance yourself from your native language
Tada : You made a film in America with American actors. Was that your first time making a film in a foreign language?
Okada : "ZERO COST HOUSE." I was there in the rehearsals, but I wasn't taking a leadership role as the director, I was just involved as a playwright, giving my opinions.
Tada : I've made Korean works in Seoul several times, but even if I think, "I wish they'd speak more subduedly" in Japanese, I end up saying, "They don't speak so subduedly in Korean." Language is culture, so it's different in the first place. That's why I'm really curious about what Mr. Okada thought when I made it in a foreign language.
Okada : When I made "ZERO COST HOUSE," I think it was more important that it was in English than that it was not in Japanese. In other words, English is the more major language. Whether it's Shakespeare or Tennessee Williams, if a character who speaks English in the original is performed in Japan, the character is translated and speaks in Japanese. It's normal for theater. But the reverse is not so common, and the reason is that I think English is "superior" to Japanese. So in that work (by having an American play "Toshiki Okada" in English), I tried to take advantage of that hierarchical relationship. That was possible because it was in English, and I don't think it would work if I did the same thing in a work that uses Japanese and Korean.
Tada : In "Jichi to Yuko," I got the impression that you were breaking away from, or distancing yourself from, native Japanese expressions. In the lines, the woman played by Sasaki Sachiko says, "No one will understand what I'm saying anyway. I made a mistake in choosing my native language." She also said something like, "The flavor of Japanese won't be conveyed." That left a strong impression on me, as it seemed like you were distancing yourself from your native language, which is supposed to be the weapon of a person who creates theater, or competing in a different way. How are you feeling about language in that area in your next production, "Super Premium"?
“ZERO COST HOUSE” ©Hideto Maezawa
Okada : The text for "Super Premium" is written as if I had never written such a text for "Ground and Floor" (laughs). I wrote it in everyday Japanese. In interviews, I am often asked, "Chelfitsch uses a lot of subtle nuances in Japanese, but aren't those difficult to convey in translated subtitles?" I believe that such nuances of Japanese will never be fully conveyed, no matter how good the translator is. So, there are two things I value when writing text. One is to value the nuances of Japanese. I will never throw them away. And the other is to write text that does not lose its power when the nuances are stripped away.
<Fujiwara Chikara Short Review>
Chelfitsch "Super Premium Soft W Vanilla Rich" Mannheim performance @ May 2014
The story is set in a convenience store that could be found anywhere. The first book of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, all 48 pieces (prelude + fugue) is played with a rather thin electronic arrangement, while the store clerk and customers perform strange movements (dance?). They look like insect specimens that came from the far eastern island of Japan. Their appearance is a caricature of modern Japanese people.
As Okada Toshiki said, "I wanted to make something frivolous," this work is probably the most frivolous of all the works by Chelfitsch to date. ...But the irony that bursts forth creates a situation that is funny but not funny at the same time. The motif of a dying Japan, depicted in recent works "Current Location" and "Ground and Floor," is also inherited here. Chelfitsch is seriously trying to reboot the "Japanese."
Having a base and being free to move
Tada : Among Japanese playwrights of the same generation, around 40 (laughs), Okada is by far the most active outside of Japan. That means that wherever you go, you're a foreigner, so how do you deal with that sense of floating, or the feeling of being a foreigner? Even when I watch the flow of your works, I feel that your activities as a playwright are very much linked to the content of your works. What do you think about that sense of floating?
Okada : That question really gets to the heart of the matter for me... I sometimes think that it's essential for theater to have a specific base of operations. For Tada, that's Kirari Fujimi. But Chelfitsch doesn't have anything like that. So I get anxious and wonder if this is okay. But, I'm sure that this situation suits me. If you stay in Japan for a long time, you want to open the windows in your room to let in some air, and you want to go abroad. I've become completely that way. For example, I meet Japanese people who help me operate the subtitles when I'm there. And among those people, there are quite a lot of people who say, "It's hard to live in Japanese society, so I came abroad." And I basically understand how those people feel. I've felt uncomfortable since I was young. But I didn't have the courage to go out, so I stayed in Japan. But now I'm living like this. I think there are things that only someone like me, who lacked courage and stayed shut up in Japan, but who has come a long way and become very active abroad, can do. I think that this awareness is very much reflected in my work.
──In that sense, Kirari☆Fujimi is your base of operations, but at the same time, you travel all over Japan and are on the move quite a bit.
Tada : At first, I got tired of Tokyo and stopped performing there... but now I perform in the Kanto region too. When I'm overseas, I mainly perform in Seoul. I feel like that kind of outsider or marebito feeling suits my personality quite well. In the case of Fujimi, though, I feel like a different circuit is at work.
There are several reasons why I dislike Tokyo, and I wish I could live without being involved with it, but sometimes when I perform in the Kanto area, I feel like I can't escape at this distance, or that I can reach out. I feel that way especially now because we're in the middle of a performance (recorded after the performance of Kirari Fujimi's repertoire "Nuhikun" ). So I can also say that I don't have the courage to establish a base somewhere right now. I think it's about making connections from a certain place and expanding the range of my reach.
──I think "travel" is a big theme for artists, and I feel that you two have been particularly at the forefront of it over the past few years. I'm sure you have had a huge influence on young Japanese theater artists. For example, I was surprised when I interviewed Hanchu-Yuei's Mikie Tanaka, who said she wanted to perform somewhere other than Tokyo. But she later went on to tour with Tokyo Deathlock in their production of Ceremony. It seems like that kind of influence is spreading.
Tada : Now that Chelfitsch has been going to Europe, I think it has become somewhat easier for Japanese companies to go overseas as well, but how do you personally feel about that, Okada-san?
Okada : I don't really get the sense that younger creators and actors feel that way, or that they want that kind of thing. Maybe it's because I don't spend much time in Japan and I don't have many opportunities to interact with those kinds of people.
I like touring overseas and it's fun, and more than anything, it allows us to perform more often and gives us a lot of motivation. But not all of the Chelfitsch touring members feel the same way. Being away from Japan is stressful for many, and being overseas means giving up the chance to work in Japan, and it's also true that actors find it more rewarding to perform in front of a domestic audience that understands without subtitles. I often wonder if the path of performing overseas is not really in demand, and if that's the case, I'm honestly sad (laughs).
But we can't just feel lonely forever, and I think that changes in mentality may happen very slowly. I would be very pleased if the current generation in their 20s, and even younger generations, were to start using the roads that we have made easier to travel.
On provocations for change
──Another thing you two have in common is that your works are quite provocative. You always seem to be provoking things like "theater," "audiences," "Japanese language," and "Tokyo."
Okada : As I said before, I had felt a sense of discomfort or dissatisfaction for a long time, and I think that had a lot to do with it. If I felt uncomfortable, I could have just left, but I didn't have the guts to go abroad, and yet I still needed to resolve the discomfort, because if I didn't, I would have died, so I needed to express my discomfort. And artists are people who can turn the expression of discomfort into something valuable, so in that sense, being an artist is a very convenient way of life for me.
Okada-san is also a judge for the Kishida Kunio Drama Award and I feel that his judgement every year is a kind of provocation, but Tada-san has also become the youngest artistic director in history of a public hall and won a major award in Korea. You are in a position where you can't run away or hide, so to speak, and there are young people following in your footsteps who are watching over you two. Do you feel any desire to take some kind of action to change the current environment of the arts and society in Japan?
To me, the current environment in Japan seems like a "swamp." I think that theatrical writers have used the swamp-like sense of obstruction in Japan in the 2000s as a source of creativity, and I think that you two have started from there and opened up new frontiers. But I feel that the environment itself is still in a "swamp" that absorbs and nullifies any responses. ...I would like to hear your thoughts on Japanese theater and society today.
Tada : ...A "swamp" (laughs). I have quite an image of it being "hard", and it's difficult to change that hardness, but there are soft parts in Japan too, so I guess I'm looking for them. It's better to push and pull soft things rather than hitting something hard. Regarding public halls, there was a moment of excitement over the Theater Law, but I also think, "It's still as hard as ever!" In that sense, I guess private halls are softer now. The next "Karumegi" will be performed at KAAT and Kitakyushu Performing Arts Center, so there's no point in talking about public halls being hard (laughs).
──For example, what do you mean by private sector?
Tada : For example, the former Edamitsu Iron Theater and Takozo in Kochi. When it comes to opening up a place to the community, private people are more agile and can deal directly with the local greengrocer. Personally, it would be nice if there were small private theaters that could be consolidated into public theaters, but I don't think that will happen if we just wait like this. I became the artistic director of Kirari Fujimi in 2010, and several years have passed since the Theater Law was enacted, but I don't think anything has changed. I don't think things will change unless there are more examples of small-budget theaters like Kirari Fujimi. Anyway, the image is to find a place that is flexible. And share it with flexible people.
──What about Mr. Okada?
Okada : Is it like a "swamp" that has dried up and hardened into a very uneven shape that makes it difficult to walk? I'm just combining what the two of you have just said (laughs). Tada-san, you received the East Asia Theater Award, right? The Kishida Drama Award is the same, but awards are essentially irrelevant. But it is precisely because you don't care that you received an award that you want to be talked about. I want it to be like a contribution to something. A Japanese director won a Korean theater award. It would be better if that was talked about in the Japanese theater world. But it didn't get much attention. The reason it didn't get talked about is because people aren't particularly interested in such things, right? So, the lack of interest is what makes it a "swamp," right? That's unfortunate.
I am also currently in the position of a judge for the Kishida Drama Award. It is a tough role, so I feel that I have to fulfill it properly, and in order to do that I have to say what I want to say, so I write provocative things in my reviews, but they don't get much attention, and I feel like I'm just spinning my wheels (laughs). Recently, I was asked to write something on the theme of "overseas," so I wrote a fairly provocative piece for a magazine called "Tragedy and Comedy" (November 2014 issue), but the reaction was also weak (※Currently, it can be viewed on Okada Toshiki's Facebook ). But, there's no point in complaining like now, so there's no need to give up, and there's no other way than to continue, so I'll continue to provoke in the future (laughs).
Where and with whom will you create your plays?
──Thank you for your positive comments (laughs). But in that sense, I feel that KAAT is becoming a more open theater with the upcoming performances of "Karumegi" and "Super Premium," and I believe that these works will surely bring provocative stimulation to Japan today. Finally, could you tell us the highlights of each work?
Tada : Highlights... Of course the work itself is great, but in the case of "Karumegi," I hope that the fact that such a work can be made will inspire people. Also, I would like people to see the relationship between the rulers and the ruled, the country, the war, as well as Japan and Korea.
Okada : Well, for "Super Premium..." I want to create an unpleasant atmosphere like "Ground and Floor" that I made last year (laughs). Did you feel uncomfortable in Germany after all?
--Huh? It's not that I disliked it (laughs), but there was a tense, unbearable feeling. Okada said he wanted to make something "frivolous," and it was actually quite funny, but at the same time, I felt frozen, like, "No, this isn't funny..."
Okada : You can understand the content by watching the play, so what I want to say loudly here is that I want you to see the actors. Come and see the actors' performances.
Tada : Ah, that's true. I'd like people to see Korean actors in "Karumegi" too. ... As a director, do you want to keep working with actors who speak Japanese, or do you think it's okay to not be so hung up on that anymore? Which is it?
Okada : I want to stick to Japanese. Japanese is my native language, I love the Japanese language, and there are still many Japanese actors who want to work with me.
Tada : That's right. In my case, I don't write my own plays, so it's becoming quite common for me to create works entirely in Korean, and I'm blessed with good actors both in Japan and Korea. I'd like to live in Korea. Well, basically, I live where there is work.
--You also don't know where you'll be based at the end of your floating journey, Mr. Okada. For some reason, your hat is starting to look like Snufkin's (laughs).
Okada : When you're on tour for two months, your hair gets really long. You'd be in trouble if you didn't have a hat. Ah, that's why Snufkin wears a hat, isn't it?
--I see (laughs). Well, it's time, so I'd like to hang up the line here. I'm looking forward to each of your performances.
