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Yokohama Triennale 2014 Akira Takayama Interview Part 1

ヨコハマトリエンナーレ2014 高山明 インタビュー 前編

Interview: Haruo Kobayashi (blanClass)
Text: Akiko Inoue
Photo: Masamasa Nishino

Akira Takayama of Port B, who has presented theater works such as ``Complete Evacuation Manual,'' ``Public Vote Project,'' ``Lightless II,'' and ``Tokyo Heterotopia,'' in a unique touring style that sets it apart from conventional theater. is scheduled to present a new work titled ``Yokohama Commune'' at Yokohama Triennale 2014. This work is scheduled to be performed at nitehiworks from October 30th to November 3rd, but until the other day, a portion of the work's introduction was on display at the Yokohama Museum of Art, the venue for Yokotori 2014. What kind of mechanism will be applied to this work, which is composed of these two elements? In mid-September, while the work was in the middle of production, I was able to speak directly with Mr. Takayama. Haruo Kobayashi, representative of blanClass, will be interviewing Mr. Takayama about his work this time, taking into consideration his past works.

What is “Yokohama Commune”?

Kobayashi : Nice to meet you. thank you. The other day, I went to Yokotori to see Mr. Takayama's work on display at the Yokohama Museum of Art.
I think the title of your past works includes the keyword "heterotopia *1, " and this work feels a little connected to that. In other words, the works on display at this museum focus on "people who are considered minorities in a certain region." To put it the other way around, I got the feeling that the state of minorities from the perspective of the majority, or the relationship itself, is not stable. First, let's talk about the works on display at this museum. Please tell us how this will be connected to Yokohama Commune, which will be developed at nitehiworks in the future.

Takayama : The works on display at the Yokohama Museum of Art are video monitors that are composed of Japanese voices and subtitles spoken by people from Asia, such as Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. It functions as an introduction, like a profile introduction for the Yokohama Commune project.

Akira Takayama / Port B Yokohama Triennale 2014 exhibition view

Akira Takayama / Port B Yokohama Triennale 2014 exhibition view
Photo: Masato Yamamoto Photo provided by: Yokohama Triennale Organizing Committee

Right now, it's just voices and subtitles, but the general outline of the work is that from a certain moment, those people move to Koganecho with their bodies and the monitors, and it becomes a physical performance piece.

Kobayashi : In other words, the person whose voice can be heard from the black monitor displayed in the museum will appear in the performance piece.

Takayama : Yes. There are six of them in total, but when it comes to the performance piece, we plan to invite six more people, bringing the total to 12.

As for the setting, I'm thinking of making it something like a one-on-one Japanese language school.
In other words, 6 students whose native language is not Japanese and 6 teachers will work for 3 hours every day from October 30th to November 3rd (16:00-19:00 *15:00-11/3 only) 18:00) will appear at nitehiworks. By the way, I am thinking of asking people from Kotobuki-cho *2 in Yokohama to become teachers. This time, the theme is "movement", and the six students have traveled from various countries in Asia by various means, such as by boat or walking. I think many of the people in the town have traveled quite a bit before finally arriving at Kotobuki. The 12 people will meet at nitehiworks in Koganecho. I'm currently thinking about what kind of classes will be held there.

Akira Takayama

Kobayashi : The people of Kotobuki Town are also people who ended up in Kotobuki Town after many twists and turns. It seems that the words ``flowed away'' or ``arrived'' are the key keywords for this article.

Takayama : Yes. I don't know if it was temporary, but after being adrift, I'm currently staying in Yokohama, and these people met and opened a Japanese language school. Actually, the point is that the boundaries between teachers and students are ambiguous, and the boundaries disappear, but I think that people whose native language is Japanese are teachers, and people from Asia are students. In reality, it is quite possible that the students can speak Japanese better than the teacher, and the line between the two is quite vague, but it is possible that the students will be able to read the same text together and talk about it with each other forever. It will be held for 5 days.

Kobayashi : The performance takes place for three hours out of five days. It's quite long, isn't it? Where and how will the audience see it?

Takayama : Nitehiworks is set up like a mezzanine floor, so you can look into it from there. Even though it's a classroom, it's a one-on-one tandem *3 It's going to be something like this, and I don't think you'll be able to understand what's being said as it is, but in order to listen to the conversations going on at each table, we'll have a radio set up and the customers can tune it themselves. Allows you to listen to the conversation. There are 6 tables.

Nitehiworks, the venue (before construction)

Photo: nitehiworks, the venue (before construction)

Kobayashi : The empty tables aren't arranged symbolically as a set, but they are given that kind of function.
Mr. Takayama has used the method of broadcasting audio using a transmitter *4 and radio set several times, as you did this time. I think there are other ways to do it in a closed room, but does the radio have a special meaning?

Takayama : It's a personal thing, but I started listening to the radio a lot after the earthquake. Radio is just radiation, so it has the property of spreading even though you can't see it. In the same way, radiation spreads without being visible, but I think it's pretty cool that one side has a negative effect on the human body, while the other side is converted into voice. Another reason is that it uses batteries, so you don't need a power source, and you have a lot of freedom in many ways.

Kobayashi : The audience can also interact with it. In short, it's a device for the viewer to think about.

Takayama : Yes. It functions as a tool, and the process of tuning it is also interesting as a simple gesture.

Kobayashi : Will the audience also see each other's gestures?

Takayama : That's true. We don't have seats to watch the performance, so of course we want to create a free space where people can watch while talking or having a cup of tea. So I think there's probably a lot of interaction between the customers. I mean, it would be nice if there was one.

About “perspectives” when capturing a city

Kobayashi : When trying to capture a city, I think it's really important to consider what point of view and what parts of the city to capture. Photography and film are media that symbolize the process of cutting things out, but what are the points and points of view that Mr. Takayama keeps in mind when he cuts out cities as plays?

Takayama : That may depend on the work, but the truth is that I don't really understand how I see cities.

Kobayashi : It seems to be a problem with media such as architecture, photography, and movies, but at the same time, it's also a problem with the concepts that each form has... In other words, Mr. Takayama uses the concept of theater as a base to examine cities, and you are saying that this is the opposite of the theater that sociologists have discovered in cities. From my point of view, the things that feel distinctive are things like voices and behavior that can seem connected but also separate. I feel like Mr. Takayama's eyes are capturing and reacting to a certain moment in time. I really wanted to know what that was...

Takayama : To be honest, I don't really know what that is...
It's true that I walk around town a lot when doing research, and I come up with a lot of things while I'm walking. Most of the time, I decide to give it a try. There is no doubt that I am doing this without much intention to view the city this way.

Kobayashi : However, after seeing it, you bring it back to the city.

Takayama : That's right. Theater is my position, so there's no doubt that I look at the city in a somewhat theatrical way. But when it comes to how to bring theater into the city, the first thing that can be said with certainty is that it's better to hide it. Therefore, I am very conscious of ``let's try not to make things too overtly theatrical.'' On the other hand, I have a strong tendency to connect with fields other than theater, for example sometimes with photography, and sometimes with language schools as in this case.

Kobayashi : Speaking of photography, you worked with Shinichi Tsuchiya on 2011's Lightless II *5 . Actually, he's my friend (lol)

Takayama : Is that so? We had a great collaboration at that time.

<img alt="《No Light II》2011 Photo: Masahiro Hasunuma

"Lightless II" 2011 Photo: Masahiro Hasunuma

Takayama : At this time, I collected thousands of press photos of Fukushima and photos taken in evacuation zones, and asked Mr. Tsuchiya to work with me to look at them. He explained things like, ``So this is a press photo,'' or ``This doesn't look like a press photo, because...'' and we just kept having discussions like, ``Then what is a press photo?'' By doing this, I was able to improve the precision of how to use photographs. That's how I incorporate photography into my work, but together we explored a way to involve it other than having Mr. Tsuchiya take the photos. I like the way it connects with other media.

Kobayashi : That's the meaning behind Takayama-san's connection with various media.

Takayama : In order to stir up the drama, I asked him to appear in the photo.
But as I was doing it, I thought it was interesting that the photography was also interfering with the theater.

Kobayashi : It's like the entrance and exit are reversed, or rather, the very idea of researching and creating things is based on theater, but when it comes to outputting it, we transform it as much as possible. Does the fact that the entrance is strictly theater, in other words, a kind of attitude?

Takayama : That's true. If you don't start from there, it will be nothing. I often think about what the standards are, but since I'm a theater person, I can see that my work is unusual from a theater perspective. But the problem is that the audience doesn't watch it thinking it's a play, and if they watch it as a play and think it's interesting because it's a bit distorted, they'll say, ``So what's the point?''

Kobayashi : I would say that literacy itself is not shared at all.

Takayama : Not yet. There is probably a big difference in this, but of course there is also a way to cater to a limited number of customers and create something that only those who understand it can understand. That being said, there are aspects of me that think it's amazing that we've made it this far. However, I don't go in that direction, I would like to eliminate theater and focus on seeing what kind of fun and fun I can get from it even if I don't understand theater, so I want to make my own works better. For me, the only thing that really matters is whether or not it's really interesting when it's accepted by the audience.

Kobayashi : When you go out into the city and create something, I think there are various ways to cast a sociological net or to read it politically, but I think that's what Mr. Takayama is interested in. Then, I intuitively felt that it was a product of economic activity. How do you feel about that?

Takayama : I hadn't really thought about it, but that might actually be the case. The reason for this is that I felt that I had to deal with cities not in the abstract sense of ``city'', but rather in the concrete object of ``Tokyo''. That's what triggered it. Probably about 10 years ago. Little by little, it spread to different cities and continues to this day.

If you look at Tokyo, you will see that it is not actually a city that was created by politics, but rather by things like weeds that started from the post-war black market and grew up from below.In other words, it was created by money and goods. I think it's a city that naturally formed from flowing water. For example, such a network became the current Yamanote Line. So it's an economic activity.

Akira Takayama

Kobayashi : In Yokohama, the area along the Keikyu Line is exactly like that. The ``Chon no Ma'' *6 < in Koganecho is one such example, but there were many small factories that were stuck under the guard of the Keikyu Railway. It's gone now though.

Takayama : I'm kind of drawn to it.

Kobayashi : In ``Politics of the City,'' Koji Taki says, ``Tokyo is turning itself into ruins.That's why, even though it's sparkling, it seems like it's decaying no matter where you cut it.'' That's how I say it, but Shibuya and Shinjuku have a particularly strong image like that.

I thought that Mr. Takayama was working on reinterpreting cities in terms of economics.

Takayama : When you say "economy," it sounds like a big "economy," but it's a bit more sub-level.

Kobayashi : That's right. It's like the work that's actually happening... Although it has very complex layers.

Takayama : I'm really interested in the behavior and survival methods of people who are worried about things like ``How am I going to eat?'' and ``How am I going to survive?'' I think it was the same with the black market after the war. I think so.

Kobayashi : I think Koganecho is exactly that kind of town, but in Koganecho's case, politics has a big influence. I forced everything into there.

Takayama : Was that after the war?

Kobayashi : After the war, the U.S. military took over the area and conveniently squeezed it into the Kogane-cho to Shinkane-cho area. That's why there are so many minorities.
Misato Yanagi *7 has written a story about this. That's quite a fantasy though.

Takayama : No, I thought it was interesting. It may be true that I am interested in economics. I'm not interested in cities that are organized from a certain depth or height, or cities that are designed by urban planners, but rather in a spontaneous way, where we organize ourselves and create things like this. I'm really attracted to cities that look like this. So I think that trend is extremely strong.

Theater or city? What is the theatrical space of the new era?

Kobayashi : As ideologies change in various ways and in various regions, what used to be an economy that was considered to be a complete macro- and micro-economic phenomenon can no longer be explained globally, and it can no longer be said that it is limited to the internet society. There are some places where it doesn't exist.

Takayama : That's right. I want to highlight the texture of a town, or the definite differences in skin sensation, and of course I think that can be expressed through photography, film, and art, but I want to capture it theatrically. As I was listening to your story, I realized that you have been thinking about what to do about it. I think I instinctively knew that it would be difficult to bring that to the stage in such a situation.

Kobayashi : Does that mean something will be damaged?

Takayama : Yes. I feel like something is missing.

Kobayashi : I think there is now a polarization among theater professionals as to whether they should make the most of the theater or abandon it.

Takayama : I really like theater plays. After all, it's been going on for thousands of years, so it's effective to create an environment where customers can concentrate and not move around. That's why I think there are so many things that can only be done in theaters. However, when I try to do what I want to do in the theater, it becomes impossible. Strength and centripetal force are positive aspects when creating a stage performance, but at some point I began to have doubts about these things...

Akira Takayama

Kobayashi : The fact that we experience the same thing in the same way on stage can also be seen as a plus.

Takayama : That's why in the past, it was thought that it was especially good to have a stage that could be viewed in the same way no matter where you were watching it, and close-out seats were cheaper. However, I started to think that it didn't really matter. Rather, when thinking about how to deal with things that have naturally arisen in the city, it is clear that it is faster to go to the city where the scene is than the stage, or to go there. Even if I don't go there, I've come to think that it's more effective to go to the city and take a fresh look at the environment with some small tricks.

Kobayashi : It can be said that the perspective that Mr. Takayama uses when looking at cities is geared toward economic activities, but when he tries to reintegrate what he sees from that perspective into his work, he ends up seeing things that are close to economic mechanisms. You are creating it. I think you often use the word "tourism," but sightseeing means things like planes and trains, and in other words, how people get around. So publishing and mass media are involved, and each country is being strengthened.

Takayama : Certainly. I may have created a model, or rather a mechanism. But unfortunately, this is completely different from making money yourself.

I had no idea like that at all, and it really bothered me... (lol)

Kobayashi : No, that's the same for me... (lol)
I was talking about theaters earlier, and I also manage a space, but when I tried to control it myself, I felt that rather than operating within a large system like an art museum, I decided to focus on the store as a whole. It's easier to plan for an economy like running a house.

Takayama : That's right. This is a little off-topic, but isn't the Tokyo Olympics coming in seven years? If we were to propose a different model for a national project like this, it would be difficult to suggest a different model unless we reversed the standard of value to focus on how small something can have a big effect. It's like everything becomes an undercard...

Kobayashi : Tokyo looks like it's going to be tough. It looks like there will be a bubble... (lol)

Takayama : I think it will happen. I think it's going to get bigger and bigger, and there will be artists who will take advantage of it. I don't think I'll ever ride it... or I don't think I'll even be allowed to ride it, but I think I have to be careful when doing it.

Kobayashi : But even if you don't intend to ride it, I don't think everyone can remain unrelated in some way.

Takayama : Probably not. If I were to take over that role, I would like to show that there are models like this, such as creating an app for smartphones, and that small app can actually change the way a town looks. .

Kobayashi : This may be a little off topic, but your early work ``Museum Zero Hour'' was a theater work, right? I believe you created some stage works in your early days, but are there any similarities between the works you produced then and what you do now?

Takayama : There are quite a few, actually. I started working on Brecht's work right after I created Port B. Not much has changed since then. The play consisted of three parts, with Brecht's collection of poems performed in parts one and two, and the audience's output in part three. We had some professionals in the audience seats, but in other words, the work asks questions about how the audience will accept the performance. Specifically, we place professionals in four different media in the audience: a novelist, a video artist, a sound artist, and a dancer, and in the third part, they perform their output on stage. For example, in the case of audio, you might mix the recorded sounds of part 1 and 2 like a DJ, or if you were a dancer, you would dance. As you can see from these early works, the core of what I want to do in theater is actually how the audience accepts the theater work and how I can output what they accept. In other words, who is the main character? I wanted to create a work in which the customer was the main character, so it naturally evolved into the current form. However, I don't know why, but this time with Yokotori, it was a little different, and it felt like the audience could peek inside.

Kobayashi : I see. On stage, it's easier in a sense because it's diagrammed.

Takayama : That's right. But even if I tried that, I couldn't create a very interesting experience, and it ended up looking like a simple inversion of black and white, so I decided to go to the city instead.

Kobayashi : But then it quickly becomes complicated (lol)

Takayama : The more complex things are, the more it stimulates me, and the more interesting it is to do (lol)

Kobayashi : Of course, Mr. Takayama's work has his name on the label, but the more customers actively participate, the less it becomes clear who the work belongs to. How do you think about your position in this regard?

Takayama : When we created the "Complete Evacuation Manual" in 2010, if we created only the initial framework of creating 29 evacuation shelters at each of the 29 stations on the Yamanote Line, in the end customers would become independent. So we started building our own evacuation shelters. That was very ideal for me. That's why I create the first frame, but I think it's more interesting when the customer goes beyond that, or rather, makes it their own.

Kobayashi : For example, when the iPhone was released, it sold instantly, but I don't think there were many people who bought it without knowing what it was beforehand. The story goes that even the people developing the software were doing it without knowing what it was (lol).That's why I think what Jobs did was outrageous. I sold it with a presentation that sounded like a catchphrase. So everyone went crazy buying things that were so difficult to use. But it doesn't really belong to Jobs; each of them thinks it's their own. That's why I think the iPhone was a very rare and very good phenomenon. However, many people get very angry about things they don't understand. Some people may be angry at Mr. Takayama's work.

Takayama : Some people who do theater get angry. I don't have much of a partner at all...

Kobayashi : But on the other hand, it's a strange society, where people seem to be willing to pay for things they don't understand (lol).

Takayama : That's true.
It may be true that things are imperfect, and sometimes I think it's better that way. Especially in the last five years or so, I've been thinking about just creating a base that can be automatically generated. If you want to create something with a high level of perfection, it's easier to do that in the theater.

Kobayashi : By the way, is it possible that your work will be presented in theaters in the future? I guess Yokohama Commune is in a sense similar to a theater.
You mentioned somewhere that there might be a new type of theater.

Takayama : That's right. What I'm doing is not so much creating theater, but rather creating a system that creates "theatre" in places that aren't theaters, even if it's temporary or hypothetical. I think it's more like that than theater.

Kobayashi : Movies were also created by renting out theaters that used to host plays, so I think it's a medium that grew in a distorted way, but they changed the way they were used and became movie theaters. In terms of theater, there may be a space that is suitable for today's times, like a riverbank in Edo.

Takayama : It's fine if it's a real space, but isn't it extremely difficult to have something like that in Japan? The place is attractive, but for now I'm not going there, and I'm thinking about something a little more layered, like a theater.

Akira Takayama

Kobayashi : Maybe it's the infrastructure, but whether it's Tokyo or Yokohama, there's a kind of religious soil that's ingrained in them, and maybe it's just the nature of the land that's so open to begin with.

Takayama : That's right. Moreover, these things become more attractive as you get older.

Kobayashi : Due to government-led development in front of the station, it is no longer possible to sit there, but I hope that urban development itself will change in the future.

Takayama : I guess that's what's more attractive. There are some interesting things in the first place, but they are hidden behind various blindfolds. I'm more interested in making people realize, ``Oh, it was there.'' In short, we don't create something, we use some system to peel away the many layers of coverings that exist within us, and make what is hidden visible. I would like to do something like this. Rather than creating something new and questioning its strength, I would like to think about things like, for example, how does the relationship with the surrounding environment change when something small is placed there?

Kobayashi : The experience of performing on stage, and the fact that you go out of your way to see it, is based on relationships.

Takayama : That's right. It was the first stage performance I saw that I really liked, and I was able to perceive not only what was happening on stage, but also the audience around me, and I realized that I was watching the stage in this way in this situation. I have had the experience of being able to enjoy something even if I fully perceive it. So I started doing theater because I wanted to do something like this.

Kobayashi : I really feel that way about Pina Bausch's plays.

Takayama : She doesn't create one-sided performances. I think I like it too.

Kobayashi : You can really see the audience's reactions, and it feels like the entire stage and audience seats are an installation.

Takayama : Pina Bausch's stage work is really like that.

Kobayashi : At that point, time was almost running out, but I felt like I was able to ask everything I wanted to ask. Thank you very much for today.
I would like to continue this by actually watching ``Yokohama Commune'' and talking about it again.

Click here for "Interview with Akira Takayama (Part 2) After the Yokohama Commune".


"footnote"
*1: Heterotopia: A different place within the framework of reality that is disconnected from everyday life. Akira Takayama's work ``Tokyo Heterotopia'' was exhibited at F/T in 2013, and is a touring theater piece that introduces you to a foreign land within Tokyo.

*2: Kotobuki Town: The name of a town in Naka Ward, Yokohama City. It is often referred to as the Kotobuki district, including Matsukage-cho and Ogimachi. There are over 100 simple lodging houses called ``Doya'' for day laborers, and it is called ``Doya Street.'' Along with Tokyo's Sanya and Osaka's Kamagasaki, it is said to be one of Japan's three largest smug districts.

*3: Tandem: A language exchange, a method in which two people with different native languages teach and learn their respective languages.

*4: Transmitter: An electrical or electronic device that sends out signals. transmitter. Transmitter.

*5 "Without Light": Based on a play written by Elfriede Jelinek in response to 3.11, Akira Takayama organizes a fictional "Fukushima tour" by comparing the urban space of Tokyo to Fukushima. the work.

*6: Chon no Ma: An adult entertainment shop that provides sexual services that operates along the former Red Line and Blue Line and its area.

*7: Misato Ryu: *Japanese-Korean novelist and playwright who lived around Koganecho. He is sometimes described as a writer who continues the lineage of Buraiha, who writes many personal novels.

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