[Conversation] Daigaku Yamashiro x Haruo Kobayashi “The past of B seminar and the future of blanClass”
Even those who hear the word " B seminar" and do not get a sense of it,
If you look at the names of the artists who were involved in that, you'll find artists who have been leading the way in Japanese contemporary art since the 1960s .
It's not hard to imagine that it was an experimental and advanced place.
And " blanClass " stood up in the same place as if to inherit that history.
With the desire to have many people know about the place where contemporary artists create and present works, and if possible, to be able to be there,
We interviewed Mr. Haruo Kobayashi, the son of Mr. Akio Kobayashi, the creator of "B Semi", and the current director of blanClass.
The interviewer is Daisuke Yamashiro, a writer associated with blanClass. The past of B seminar and the future of blanClass,
We listened with various episodes. (Location: blanClass)
Interview: Daisuke Yamashiro Photo: Masanobu Nishino Text: Akiko Inoue
- Until the B seminar starts -
"One morning, when I woke up and looked up from the stairs, there was no second floor and the sky was blue."
Daisuke Yamashiro (hereinafter referred to as Y) : I think I should start with my simple question, but until I first came to blanClas, I didn't know that the predecessor was "B seminar". So I was very surprised. This is also the B seminar (currently blanClass), and it is said that it is also Mr. Kobayashi's home.
Haruo Kobayashi (K) : When the B seminar was established, this was the Kobayashi family's house. In 1967, the B seminar was established in Fujimi-cho , Yokohama, so it was 1971 when I was three years old when I moved to Idogaya.
Y : When I learned that blanClass was a B seminar, I re-read the B seminar book edited by Mr. Kobayashi (“History of B seminar 〈Learning new expressions〉” 2005, published by BankART1929). In it, Mr. Kobayashi wrote that his family moved to Idogaya when he was 3 years old, and that when he looked up from the stairs, he could see the sky...
K : Yeah, I remember waking up one morning and looking up from the stairs and seeing that there was no second floor and the sky was blue. It was a normal wooden private house, but it feels like they demolished the second floor, put a steel frame on top of it, and put a prefabricated house on top of it.
1992 Appearance of B seminar ©B-seni Learning System
blanClass as of 2013
Y : What is B in B seminar?
K : In retrospect, this is the "B" of Bacic Seminar.
At first, when I started as a study group at the Fujimi-cho studio, there were courses from A to E, such as a "foreign painting basic class that anyone can get familiar with" and an "art class for children". So, A called the `` Yoshishige Saito Modern Art Specialist Seminar,'' a seminar in which people who were half-university-like artists brought their works to a joint review, and B called the ``Contemporary Art Basic Seminar.'' It was a seminar like a basic course of contemporary art.
To put it simply, there are almost no other courses, and only the B course is left, so it feels like the B seminar was named.
Y : Even with tapes and records, the A-side contains pop songs, but the B-side often contains more maniac songs. I think it's interesting that the sound of B matches the image of contemporary art.
K : There was an inevitability that it happened to be B, not A or C, and I think my father (Akio Kobayashi) liked it.
Y : Did the design model of the school and course that the B seminar referred to exist in Japan at the time?
K : I don't think you're referring to things in Japan. From around 1957, my father was studying at the Art Institute of Fine Art in San Francisco , and it seems that the principal at that time was beginning to teach a new type of art education, and that was the beginning of art education. I think that it has become one of the bases to explore.
The student dispute at Berklee happened just after my father returned home, but San Francisco itself had the atmosphere of the eve of the democratic movement, and I think there were some interesting painters. So I think my father was greatly influenced by that overall atmosphere.
Another reason why the B seminar started was the student dispute in Japan. The school building of Tama Art University was located in Kaminoge, near Yokohama, and Yoshishige Saito, who was teaching at the time, would take the side of the students during a student dispute, so there was an incident in which he was kicked out of the school. .
The school wasn't functioning at all, so the students voluntarily held seminars in various places.
That's why many of the people who took part in the first A-seminar (Yoshishige Saito Contemporary Art Seminar) were Saito-sensei's students from Tama Art University.
People like Mr. Susumu Koshimizu , Mr. Katsuro Yoshida , Mr. Kishio Suga, Mr. Hakudo Kobayashi , and Mr. Nobuo Sekine were among them, so they are listed as early lecturers. .
Y : I also learned about the existence of the B seminar while studying contemporary art. I didn't know much about the educational program, but I had a selfish image of it as a legendary place. Anyway, I was surprised that so many members were involved.
Kobayashi-san, when did you start getting involved with the B seminar?
K : I started working properly when I was about 16. Around that time, I took a leave of absence from school, and during that break, I started helping out with the feeling, "If you're free, why don't you help out?"
At the same time as I was taking a leave of absence from school, I was also thinking about specializing in art, and that was when I began to form a full-fledged relationship with the artists who were attending the B seminar.
Y : Kenjiro Okazaki and Noriyuki Haraguchi were already active writers back then.
K : Mr. Okazaki, you first participated as a student, so it wasn't from the beginning. I don't remember when Mr. Okazaki was a student. Mr. Okazaki seems to remember me, and later I heard that Mr. Okazaki took care of me for a day.
Y : That's nice! ! Kobayashi, I think it was Mr. Kudo's class, and it seems that there were quite a few classes that used video.
K : From a very early stage, there were classes that used video. Using reel-to-reel video portapacks. When Mr. Kobayashi, Mr. Koya Hori , and Mr. Morihiro Wada started making video works, they were invited as guests and lecturers fairly soon, so I think they were doing classes using videos in 1974-75. I got it.
All the people around here seem to have been influenced by Michael Goldberg from Canada.
Y : The video portapack was introduced to Japan in 1972, so it's really early. Did you have a community or interaction between the writers?
K : I think it's completely different depending on the era, but there may have been some horizontal connections instead of almost no vertical connections.
We had 40 to 50 students in a year, so it was like a cram school.
1975 Noriyuki Haraguchi Seminar ©B-seni Learning System
1973 Kobayashi Hakudo Seminar ©B-seni Learning System
Y : I believe that you also went to the United States around 1989. How did the B seminar change after you came back?
K : When I returned to Japan in 1992, I was asked to help the B seminar in earnest. At that time, my sister was also helping out, so I started out as an assistant.
At that time, many of the instructors were relatively formalist artists who were a generation older than me. I was involved as It took me a little longer to get started with the yearly schedule, but there was a steady increase in work at a relatively great pace. My father was old and in poor health, so I helped out, but if he was in good health, I might not have helped him.
Y : Did you finish the B seminar at the same time that your father Akio passed away?
K : "Even if something happens to me and I have to close the B seminar, I want the people who are enrolled there to finish the number of years as originally promised." With a promise, I continued until around 2004. It wasn't that I wanted to close it immediately after my father passed away, but it was getting more and more difficult to run the business, and as soon as I saw it, people stopped coming.
Y : Do you think that the attractiveness of the predecessor and the trend of the times are also affecting you?
K : I think that the fact that contemporary art is in a very difficult time has also had an effect. As the situation changed,
The word "contemporary art" has become a dead word since then...
Y : Yes. It overlaps with the time when the Internet was just becoming generalized. Rather than information coming down from above, it may be that we have entered an era in which information can be obtained by oneself.
K : Also, I think it was the life span of one startup. It's been 37 years, so I wonder if it's already the limit...
- From B Seminar to blanClass -
"While we were cleaning up while saying things like 'what we really need,' we started thinking, 'What can we do with what we have left over?'"
Y : After completing the B seminar, Mr. Kobayashi will start blanClass.
Please tell us how you came to start blanClass.
K : In 2005, a year after closing the B seminar, I published the B seminar book. I used to pull out a lot of materials to make a book, so the desire to clean up escalated from there, and I decided to throw away everything I didn't need and only what I really needed, and spent three years cleaning it up. .
At that point, I had the opportunity to help Mr. Noriyuki Haraguchi's exhibition held at BankART in 2009. That was a good opportunity to launch blanClass.
Until then, I had started preparing to do something using this place, which was my B seminar. Ultimately, I came to think that I could do nothing but question art itself.
So, I told the young people who were starting to meet at this place together, "Let's start something with art as a clue."
I was worried about the contents, but suddenly I thought, "It would be nice to have a drink while watching a performance on the weekend", so I guess I gave up and left (laughs). And I decided to do it every weekend from October of that year.
Y : Every weekend since October 2009! ? At first, you were only inviting performance artists.
K : Yeah, there were some performance artists around me, and I thought I could do it. I didn't use that much physical strength to get started, and I didn't feel like I was taking too many risks.
Y : That's right, the B seminar was originally held here, so there is a place, and Mr. Kobayashi coordinated the lectures for one day during the B seminar, so we have the know-how, so it's a reasonable form. .
K : That's right, so while I was cleaning up while saying things like, "What I really need," I was like, "What can I do with what I have left over?" I felt that it would be good to change little by little while doing the rest of the details.
Y : By the way, how did you come up with the name blanClass?
K : Every Monday, we got together with young people and talked about various things. other. So, when I looked up the meaning, I found that it meant "white", and there was actually a blank (blank time after finishing the B seminar), so the walls were white, so I thought it would be nice. In addition, I made blanClass a class that means classroom.
Y : It fits well with the image here. It's B (laughs)
- From Yokohama to Venice -
“Many writers, myself included, flourished because of that. I want to say it out loud now. 』
Y : I think blanClass has the blood of the B seminar running through it, including how it works and how artists get together. That's why I want to participate in blanClass myself. Over the past few years, blanClass has started using the term live art.
K : You first started calling it live art when you did it in Shinkomura , right?
Y : When I first got to appear on blanClass, I didn't really know what to do, so I was really in trouble (laughs).
In 2010, when I first appeared at blanClass, I think that the artists, the audience, and blanClass were like, "I don't know what to do." Until then, people who were creating paintings, sculptures, installations, and other things that could be seen at any time by the viewer at exhibition halls.
In the limited time of a one-day event, I was suddenly thrown into a situation where I had to show the audience directly. Everyone wants to do that. That's why I really felt like I didn't know what was being asked of me (laughs).
But in fact, many writers, myself included, blossomed from that.
I want to say it out loud now. To use my example, up until now I had only thought about filming and exhibiting it, but if it was just for one day, I would start thinking, "Let's make an event happen." I planned something like a party. I'm sure there will be some examples of artists other than myself, but I feel that this kind of good matching has happened over the past few years at blanClass. how about that?
2012.12.22 Daisuke Yamashiro Presents Christmas Party[Picture in Picture in The Party in Picture.]
©2012 blanClass HatanoKosuke
K : At first, I wondered if there were people who needed a place to perform like so-called performance art or music, but I soon got tired of the rule of inviting only such people, and decided to come back next time. is not limited to performances, it has changed to the form of calling out to anyone I care about.
On the one hand, I don't like putting restrictions on things, but it's inevitable that there are conditions for everything, so after discussing the conditions, I asked them to do as freely as possible. It's a place, and it's not a convenient place to come, so I asked them to do things that other companies haven't done.
In addition, I would like you to do something that can be completed in one night, and if possible, even if it is not a work, I would like you to do an experiment that seeks the output of what you have been thinking so far. You said you were happy and asked.
However, there were some people who knew that the B seminar was the parent company, so even without saying anything, "You're an experimental guy" might have become a slogan. Of course, I'm saying this because I know how unreasonable it is to ask you to do something freely. That's why I didn't intentionally say "a good match was born". I was one of those who was surprised to see what came out.
I said that I woke up when I helped Mr. Haraguchi, but Mr. Haraguchi told me not to do anything. It's true that it's shallow to make things up, and even if it's a simple place or a system, if you have something that you can definitely share with others, it's better not to touch anything else.
Of course, it's always necessary to support them if they fall down, but it's no good if we're making something by kneading it around. I think it's more important to think while surrendering yourself to the phenomenon, instead of thinking about various things first.
I think that's the true form of art for me. And what blanClass does on weekends is not the final destination.
Y : In blanClass, everyone was invited to the “blank” space created by Mr. Kobayashi, trying to somehow create pillars, trying to fill the time, and something like a “structure” that was created from the outside. When I see it, I think it's starting to be appreciated.
I think one of them is the exhibition "When the Wind Blows, the Barrel Shop Makes Profit" at the Museum of Contemporary Art Tokyo, where I also participated.
I can't say all of them, but I think the pillars made by blanClass are also included.
K : Mr. Koki Tanaka has a strong influence on me, and I also think that Mr. Hiroaki Morita and Mr. Shun Sasa were particularly closely related to blanClass.
Y : Your work for the Venice Biennale this time was also shot at blanClass as an event, wasn't it?
K : The work you brought to Venice was made with blanClass. It's not like we're recording a vague task together with the participants, but I'm sure we'll be able to record some of the things that happened there and take some photos with us... .
Y : That's interesting. Of course, it's Tanaka-san's originality, but he must have thought that blanClass could do it. I don't think that if college students suddenly gathered at some university and did the same thing, it wouldn't become such a diverse place. In other words, I think it's a work that is born from the perfect match between the concept that everyone made at blanClass and Mr. Tanaka's idea.
K : When you create something with other people, in reality, unstable things happen. I think there was a growing desire to try things like instability, indecision, and going in a completely different direction than what was planned. There was something like that in the exhibition at the Yokohama Triennale. But it has to be FIXed. That's why I think I wanted to experiment with blanClass even before that.
Y : The fact that a work created in Idogaya, Yokohama, won a special award at the Venice Biennale, makes me very happy as an artist involved in creating works here. Moreover, I believe that this trend will continue to develop.
- About the blanClass project "GO to the House of Councilors Election!" -
“I want to do what is necessary in any situation, what is necessary in any situation? I want to think 』
Y : I think that the theme of this event series, the House of Councilors election, is one of the new blanClass experiments. What do you think?
K : Well, after the last House of Representatives election, while interacting with various artists, I felt that so-called politics was pushing in one direction. Under such circumstances, while it is risky for art to deal with political matters, it is possible to do something that is difficult in other places, such as dealing with politics in real time, at a place like ours. There was a point where I thought it would be good.
So the purpose of this project was not to control the House of Councilors election, but rather to avoid panic after the election. In one philosophy of blanClass, what do you want to do in any situation, or what is necessary in any situation? I want to think about it. I don't think it's true, but I feel like art has been thought to be naive in that way. Foreign artists often ask me, "Why do Japanese artists not have any political issues at all?" I don't really understand it." "It's like a haiku, so it's a bit difficult to read, so I don't think you'll be able to find an easy-to-understand political piece."
Y : That's interesting. There are many artists who do not realize that they are wrapped in oblate.
K : Everything in Japan is made up of such devices, so it's grammatical, isn't it? Subcultures are like that too, and it's only recently that foreigners have become able to read Japanese subcultures. In the same way, even in art, there has always been something political, but it's hard to understand. But if everyone can read it, the story is completely different. Things that can be seen as political even from a distance are interesting in their own way, but there's no need for everyone to go out of their way to do it.
Y : When I was given the theme of the House of Councilors election, I thought that I could not say anything about the House of Councilors election, so I would like to use the video letter method to hold an event. I don't know if it will be successful, but I'm thinking of becoming a performer myself this time.
As I said in today's talk, I don't really know, but I think I have to start from the point of trying.
So, I'd like to find a video source that will serve as the base for the work "Video Letters," which I'm planning to make over time. That's why I think my event on 7/6 (Sat) will be something like "I'm going to make a video letter about what I'm thinking about making a work called 'Video Letters'." There is an element that what you shoot in video will remain in the future.
What you've taken is recorded and you can watch it later, or you can watch what you've taken on the spot...
K : It's pretty good to say that you can watch it on the spot, isn't it? That's the biggest difference from film.
Y : I think it's a medium that makes you look at yourself, or that you show yourself to someone else.
I don't want to leave a message for the future from this place, but I think there must be something I want to leave now.
I would like to take the opportunity of the upcoming event at blanClass to see it for the first time.
- Mr. Haruo Kobayashi as an artist -
“The individual things that each person thinks about are art, so we have to keep asking them what they are.”
Y : I would like to ask about Mr. Kobayashi's part as a writer. In my humble opinion, I feel that the blanClass activity itself is your work. What do you think?
K : Of course, blanClass is not a work, but there is something else in the "Class" of blanClass besides the meaning of "classroom." "Class" as "hierarchy". It has the meaning of thinking about one's standing position (for example, standing position as an artist). I want to keep my own identity as an artist, so I don't think I'm going to identify myself with another title, but I'm originally not very proactive about creating works under my own name. I have.
That's why I've always been collaborating when creating works since I was young. That's why I didn't think anonymity was good. When I was young, I interacted with PH Studio and Dumb Type , so I've been influenced by those things as well.
Individuals continue to exist as individuals, but that's why I can't get used to the way the artist's name and work are directly linked, so I can't be proactive about that. That's why it's very natural for me to be in this position to launch something together with everyone and be present at it. I think that people who have the identity of an artist have other things to do besides creating works. That's why I want to do it all the time (laughs).
Also, the fact that I was helping out in the B seminar had a lot of influence, and there are quite a few people who have taken on jobs that normally aren't an artist's job.
But most of them are artists. The same goes for my father, Mr. Shigeo Anzai , Mr. Yoshiaki Higashino , and I think that each and every one of those people is interesting. I think it's quite an artist.
I think that's how it should be, and if everyone doesn't think about it, it will inevitably end up being something like ``how to behave within existing things''.
Y : That's right, it's not interesting that only the work displayed in the white cube is called a work.
K : I don't dislike the idea that the work is the supremacy, but I think that what the artist thinks is also the essence of the work. Also, I wonder if this system is good, and if there are other methods or if we can create another system, I think we should actively look for it. The concept of art itself is extremely unstable, so I have to keep thinking about what it is. Art is something that each person thinks individually, so we have to keep asking what it is, we have to keep thinking about it, and we have to keep thinking about the system itself that puts it on.
- About archiving -
'What was that about what actually happened! I think I have to think about it. 』
Y : Whether it's the B seminar or the blanClass, I think we consciously leave records such as the web and books, but because they don't have a physical form, we save them so that we can think about them later. Is that what you mean?
K : It's strange to write a B-seminar book, but don't take it for granted because it's history. What was that about what actually happened! I think you have to think about it. Of course, the most vivid thing is to think about the present, which is ongoing, but I also think that the past should be considered as a problem of the present.
That's why I want to think about archives and content as proactively as possible in the future.
It's not that I want to be relieved just by archiving it as information, but I think that it should be left because no one will be able to attend anyway.
Y : Only a limited number of people can be present at the scene, and if we don't do something about it, it won't happen.
K : Or symbolized or replaced with a stronger meaning.
Y : I think this B seminar book is also really amazing. It contains the writings of many different people, with one person as a witness, and the facts are often touched upon by students and teachers alike. And I hope that the path from the B seminar to blanClass and the activities so far will be more visible in the future.
K : Nowadays, you can watch various things on YouTube and so on, and I would like to send it out in that way as well. Also, over the past three and a half years, I've been able to build relationships with quite a few artists, so I'd like to consult with them about what we can do next. I'm starting to wonder if it's possible to share details with the artists, including what to do and how to manage it.
Y : Well, I think it's time to go to another term. Finding a new relationship between artists and places (planners) in a way that is different from art museums and galleries
I think I might go.
K : As an example, I want to do an e-book right now. I'm doing a series of lectures and talks called "Expansion Plan" with Mr. Tatsuo Majima , and I wondered if I could publish it as an e-book... I've released video archives up until now, but Ustream has come full circle and it's no longer rare, so I wondered if there was another thing that could be done with text.
I would like to create some things that are new and that will also make money for the artists.
B Semi and blanClass have been nurtured with roots in the land of Yokohama.
Through this interview, I feel that I was able to discover things that have changed with the times, but also things that have not changed.
And blanClass is currently in progress.
The present always becomes the past, and history is created by the accumulation of the past.
That's why I want you to see with your own eyes what is happening right now.
Click here for all projects scheduled to be held "Go to the House of Councilors Election! 2013 House of Councilors Election Before & After"
A recommended standing bar in Idogaya that Haruo Kobayashi often visits with writers
<This event has ended. >
"New ID Gaya"
About 2 minutes on foot from Idogaya Station on the Keikyu Line
It's on the left after crossing the intersection on the way to blanClass. (We will refrain from posting the address and contact information due to the convenience of the shop.)
